Pricing Matters

Advancing Diversity In Legal: It All Comes Back to Work Allocation

April 29, 2020 Season 1 Episode 14
Pricing Matters
Advancing Diversity In Legal: It All Comes Back to Work Allocation
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we speak with Diversity Lab’s  Chief Intelligence & Knowledge Sharing Officer, Lisa Kirby, and Lelia Hock, Director, Legal Department Partnerships & Inclusion Initiatives to find out how Pricing, Innovation, Client Value, and Legal Project Management teams can help to prevent the potential negative impact of the current crisis on all the advances that have been made in diversity in the legal industry. 

Lisa Kirby, Chief Intelligence & Knowledge Sharing Officer at Diversity Lab.
Lisa brings 20 years of experience in the legal profession to Diversity Lab. She has served as a practicing attorney, talent management professional, and law firm consultant. Lisa began her career as a litigator, practicing at two large law firms. She then spent several years as a professional development manager at Goodwin Procter LLP, where her contributions included helping to launch and lead the firm’s Women’s Initiative and developing a new parent coaching program. As a consultant with Edge International, Lisa advised a wide range of domestic and international law firms on strategic and talent management issues.

 At Diversity Lab, among many other duties, Lisa has led the creation and implementation of the needle-moving Mansfield Rule, now in its second certification year. She is a sought-after speaker who has been featured as a keynote speaker, presenter, and panelist on a variety of topics related to diversity & inclusion in the legal profession. Lisa also is a prolific author, having contributed articles on innovative ideas in diversity and professional development to publications like The American Lawyer, Law Practice, and Professional Development Quarterly.

Leila Hock, Director, Legal Department Partnerships & Inclusion Initiatives, Diversity Lab. Leila joined Diversity Lab with over 10 years of experience in the legal field, as a law firm associate, in-house counsel, and coach and consultant to law firms and associates. Leila began her career in the corporate practice at Mayer Brown’s Chicago office. She then spent three years practicing in the in-house legal department at Kraft Foods, supporting the global contracting needs of Kraft’s procurement and outsourcing teams. When the call of the mountains hit, Leila took a role as the first and only US in-house counsel for a global oil field services company in Denver, supporting all of the company’s US legal needs. Throughout her legal career, Leila supported a diverse legal workforce by creating and managing internship programs for diverse candidates and taking an active role in affinity groups for women and diverse counsel.

In 2015, Leila completed her professional coaching certification with the Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching and began a successful private coaching practice. Leila worked with several law firms and legal groups to develop professional development curricula geared toward business development and enhancing the “softer” skills required to advance in today’s professional world.


  • Clients are doubling down on Diversity. Legal Departments are being more deliberate in the diversity data and metrics that they require from their legal service providers.
  • Spotlight on Work Allocation. Ensure that diverse lawyers are doing career-advancing work and that  during this crisis cutting edge work is spread evenly across the firm
  • You Can Make a Difference:  From scoping, staffing to matter management you can keep diversity front of mind and play a role in advancing diversity in your firm or legal department.

To find out more about Digitory Legal please visit our website at

spk_0:   0:00
diversity matters to me because I think that we're missing out

spk_1:   0:04
on everything that we could. It cheese, um, in the legal profession and as a society in general, because we're not effectively including everyone. We're shutting out a lot of people. Perspex, Susan, Voices and creativity on talent. An intellectual guess.

spk_3:   0:35
Welcome to pricing matters. A podcast by digitally legal digit tree is a data analytics and cost management platform and service bringing data driven pricing and cost prediction to law. My name is a really a Spivey and I will be your host as we speak to leaders who are making an impact in legal pricing, discuss market trends and find out from them why pricing matters king and welcome to the pricing matters Podcast this'll Morning. We've got some wonderful guests from a diversity lab. Lisa Kirby and later Huck are joining us. And so is Catherine Crow, the founder of Digital Illegal. And we're gonna be talking about the impacts of the current crisis on diversity in the legal industry and specifically how this audience can play their part in making sure that we don't backslide. And as we saw in the 2008 recession, We're gonna talk a little bit more about that later. But first, I think an important question to ask at this time is you know, how is everyone doing? So, Lisa, I'm going to start with you. How are you?

spk_0:   1:53
I am okay. Thanks. I am holding up. Okay. Um, you know,

spk_3:   1:59

spk_0:   1:59
suppose I should say I have a lot to be thankful for right now, but, um, I'll complain a little bit that the weather here in New England, it's still in the forties and raining, um, on in lead,

spk_3:   2:13
April. But I'm doing

spk_0:   2:15
okay. Thank you.

spk_3:   2:17
Oh, thank you for sharing. And we look forward to some spring and some better weather. NATO, how you doing?

spk_0:   2:24
I'm doing good. I you know, we adversely lab. We've worked from home forever.

spk_3:   2:30
So were quite doesn't

spk_0:   2:32
paying that much. Except

spk_3:   2:34

spk_0:   2:34
I have my husband in the same base,

spk_3:   2:36
which is

spk_0:   2:37
the challenge. Um, I don't have kids of two dogs who are just thrilled to have a photo man walking them every time we get bored, Which happens to be more often these days. Um, and you know, I'm missing the anchor of kind of social, uh, interactions I'm on the board of the Colorado Women's Bar Association here in Denver That keeps me really anchored to the community, starting to miss that. But all in all,

spk_3:   2:59
pretty good. Uh, well, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I think we will reach that point where? You know, we all work from home Catherine and I d two. But it is just that sort of actual being in a space with people. Thank you for sharing that, and I'm gonna Catherine kept on How are you doing?

spk_2:   3:21
Uh, I'm I'm doing well, and I'm very grateful. Uh, you know, having kids about dog everyone in your in your space. That is a little unusual, but I'm working from home has always been our our normal. I do want to express, however you my, uh, empathy for those who are homeschooling and, uh, stretch in ways that, you know, people didn't think were possible. It's a very, very hard time for a lot of people. And I just want to say that so when we understand that, um and ah, hearts go out to you as folks try toe, adjust onto what is a very, very difficult time.

spk_3:   4:10
No, I agree, and I think I just keep saying be kind to yourself because it's all you can do right now. So the reason Catherine and I brought Lisa and later on to the show is that you know, we both shared diversity labs commitment to diversity across the legal industry. And, you know, we've started following diversity labs recent thought leadership about the potential negative impact for this current pandemic on all the advances that have been made in diversity over the past 10 years or so in the legal industry. So again, we thought it was really important to bring them both on the show to talk to us about that. And, you know, find out what you as listeners can do Teoh to help make sure that that doesn't happen this time. But before we dig into this important issue, I think it's first really helpful to you to hear a little bit more from Layla and Lisa about their roles, that diversity lab. And you know what they're doing there and you know their journey to diversity. Yep. So I'm going Teoh, hold candidates. Elena first.

spk_0:   5:19
Sure. Um, so my role of diversity lab is looking with our legal department partnership primarily. I mean, we're pretty small, flat organizations, so we all help out as needed on everything you have going on, which happens to be a lot right now. Um, but I started here about two years ago on, um was primarily hired to, um, support one of our sponsorship programme as the head coach, Um, for that program that we have implemented in law firms. Um, before I joined over the lab, I was coaching for three years, I ran my own coaching business. Working with midlevel successful professionals really focuses on how to kind of get to the next level and, ah, per share Chris career strategically. And before that, I thought the law so

spk_3:   6:06
conscious about eight year, um, six

spk_0:   6:10
years and how to in a firm. Um so my in house experience, I think, has been quite valuable to diversity lab. And it's fun to get Teoh kind of remember that role and be in that perspective. But in, um, we're really focusing on the and I issues and how clients can drive me and I in the legal industry has been a really fun couple of years.

spk_3:   6:35
Fantastic. And we're gonna talk a lot more about that later. I'm gonna hand it over to Lisa to share about her journey. And you know your role at diversity. That

spk_2:   6:48
Sure. So I'm also a recovering lawyer

spk_3:   6:51
on and

spk_2:   6:52
after practicing into large firms, I spent some time helping leave Palin and diversity efforts at a few different turn firms and doing consulting as well. And I've been a diversity lab for four years, and, um, kind of continuing my passions of diversity and being on an amazing journey here, getting to test and experiment with so many innovative new ideas to really push the needle forward and work with an amazing team. Um, Leela, Karen, our CEO, is incredibly inspirational in a true thought leader. And so it's really just such a privilege to get to work here. So just add more specifically, I lead the Mansfield rule

spk_3:   7:42
and have

spk_2:   7:42
done so since we launched it in 2017. And I I also I am the chief intelligence and knowledge sharing officer. So kind of have a hand in a lot of our other work, including the move, the needle fund that we just launched.

spk_3:   7:59
Fantastic. And I think I'm gonna stick with UDC because we're gonna get into some of the data now. So you know what I'd love for you, Teoh do is share with our listeners some of the important findings that of the impact of the 2000 and eight recession on diversity in the legal industry that we've been reading about.

spk_2:   8:18
Yeah, absolutely. The 2008 recession, unfortunately, had a devastating effect on the modest progress

spk_3:   8:27
me suited up

spk_2:   8:29
and pull that point. So I think the

spk_3:   8:32
issue is

spk_2:   8:32
that in recession, when when top times come and especially when things are unexpected or moving quickly, um, firm the meters are forced to make kind of quick decisions. And we know from research that

spk_1:   8:46
when you're making quick decisions on complicated subject what kind of a prime time for unconscious biases to see been, um, if you can make this decision slightly slower with a bit more structure and framework around it, you have a better chance of sort of managing out or minimizing

spk_2:   9:07
the way that the role that unconscious societies can play. So, um, the last recession.

spk_0:   9:13
There's lots of evidence that, um, that the cuts that were made the financial issues disproportionately impacted diverse lawyers. In fact, it's pretty incredible. But, um,

spk_3:   9:29
it was

spk_0:   9:29
not until last year, 2019 about the profession finally recovered from the decline and African American black associates that started with the recession. Um, so it's pretty amazing, and and it affected thing that you might not immediately come to mind. Of course, we think of layoffs and things like that. But even the gender pay gap increased, Um, incredibly, in 2009 so women lawyers were Onley earning 80 some on the dollar of men's income back down. They're not doing that great, but it actually went down to just a little 75 done, um, in 2009. So uhm and another disturbing statistic is that a full 50% of the equity partner to were terminated in that time were women. So I do think there's a lot more attention to that now. I think, um, hopefully we have learned from some of those the step backward which have been really hard to rebuild and recover from, and now we've made even more incremental progress. So, um, to go backwards at this time, when when the progress is already dense of flow. Um, unravel all of that in, sort of in all those years of work in an instant, um, would be really problematic.

spk_3:   10:57
Thank you for sharing their statistics. And, um, you know, for the work that you're doing to try and prevent that sort of black backsliding when I want to talk. Next about is you sort of alluded to Tim it in your aunts, and I'm gonna ask you again, Leeson, and later to come in. Um, you know, on this question is, you know, what are the parallels and what are the differences that you're seeing between 2000 and eight and now that may give us a little bit of hope, but also, you know, sure, some caution.

spk_0:   11:31
That's a really good question. I think that some of the,

spk_1:   11:35
um the difference is I cr that, um, firms now are much more cognizant of diversity and inclusion as an overall part, you know, important part of their mission and strategy. Um, so it's not considered as much of, ah sort of side after or or sort of a fluffy thing. That's a nice toe. Have I think there's much more recognition that it's something you have to leave me to have. And that's partly due to the pressure being applied and encouragement from so many enlightened clients and legal department general samples who are pushing this and keeping turning up the volume on their calls for diversity. So we have seen some different approaches. Um, some firms have, uh, cut pay across the board or, you know, temporarily offering sabbaticals more creative approaches. Hman, Jesse, sort of all or nothing layoff. That seem to be the only solution, Um, that firms employed for the most part back in 2008. So, you know, eliminating for a one K matching and things like that. I think there's much more of an approach of Ah, we're all in this together where you're seeing, um, partner draws being withheld or reduce and things like that so that everyone's doing their share. So I do think that's encouraging. And also the, um, the fact that clients air still beating the drum in terms of their expectations for diversity. Inclusion has certainly helped keep that top of mind. So I hope that that will all of this together will, um, will mean that it's not as, um, difficult of of a result, I think I think that recessions and economic crises tend to exacerbate inequalities just on sort of a global level. And, um, across the board. But it does seem like there's much more attention being given to, um, minimizing that. Orlock terms, um, this time around in Layla. Feel free to China.

spk_0:   13:50
Yeah, I would just add, you know, you're about on Lisa. The clients are certainly, um uh, keeping diversity top of mind for their law firm right now. And we've seen over the past years legal department made very concrete, specifically quest of their firms in a way that I don't think they were, you know of 12 years ago on its hard to pull back and clients so wonderful that on the concrete requests. So any requirements they put in place over the past for diversity or programs that they want their law firm to participate in, um, you know, we won't be that backside. And in fact, we've spoken with several legal department in the past few weeks That are really Andi really doubling down. I'm driving their law firm, Teoh increase, see? And I, um sometimes in ways that I'm shocked, you know, even before the Kobe 19 crisis would have been a huge deal, and it was very encouraging to see clients not let up the pressure and continue to remind their law firm. But D and I is essential on and will be considered. We know when they're evaluating how come

spk_3:   15:05
really important for our listeners and you know, their interaction with the clients in terms of innovation, pricing, project management. It's important to keep that in mind that clients are not backing down on diversity and in, you know, from what you're saying, but maybe even doubling down on it and to ensure that we don't see that backslide and I am, I want to bring in some of the programs at least that you mentioned move the needle and the Mansfield rule earlier. And, you know, I wanted to give you both a chance to talk about you know, the impact of those programs at this time. If you're seeing anything, um, you know, from the firms that you're working with in terms of how being part of those programs is is making a difference in terms of their diversity initiatives. Right now, one

spk_1:   15:56
of the key FX and

spk_3:   15:57
sort of reasons.

spk_1:   15:58
The move. The needle fund is so original, and I should have clean it.

spk_3:   16:03
Ah, size law

spk_1:   16:05
firm Coming together with over two dozen, um, general counsel and diversity lab in community leaders to commit to public transparent diversity cools over a period of five years. And one of the innovative asked best of it in addition to the fact that it's completely transparent and sharing lessons learned as well is,

spk_3:   16:28
you know,

spk_1:   16:28
small winds are long way is about it a collaborative effort. And so although we announced this in January, that seems like ages

spk_3:   16:36
ago really

spk_1:   16:38
expect to come to such a enormous bump in the road so soon along the move, the needle of fund five year sort of journey, Um, the fact that the General Kemple committed to, um, working within, collaborating with and supporting the law firm sort of through thick and thin over the course of this five years, and that the law firm also committed to collaborating amongst each other and with the legal department I think has been a great sources strength for them, sort of confronting this unexpected, um, unexpected wrinkle. And so it's great because also going back to what I said earlier the general counsel have publicly committed and an action oriented way to support this effort. So I think that provides a little bit of insurance or sort of, um, additional weight to the idea that they're supporting diversity. There. There, really, in this for the long haul, Um, five years come what may sort of rain or shine. And and we've really seen that they've really stepped forward during this time, um, to continue to emphasize that diversity inclusion are important. The firm's also we're working with them right now. I have a call later today. We've been talking to them about you know, how to double doubt in diversity inclusion. So one thing is work allocation as diverse associates become literally left visible. Um, they already research shows that river associate spend left time out of work with, um, partners who are members of the majority. So they tend to spend less time in social activities with the partners or on the golf course or her. What have you now there? You know there's a risk little

spk_3:   18:32
falling even

spk_1:   18:33
further through the cracks. So work, allocation and having some structure around that is particularly important. So that's one thing that B and E n firms were really interested in, um, putting something even more into place on what they already have. And later you were about to speak.

spk_0:   18:52
Yeah, I was just gonna say, you know, I think when one way that, um, the program but we put out the world really helps, is certainly on the legal department side. Um, the department lawyers individual, they want to do something, but they aren't sure what, and all of our programs are a little bit founded on a hope and a prayer, but they're primarily founded on behavioral science and data and research on we report back on the effectiveness of everything we dio. So you know, a legal apartment can decide to support an initiative that we are running, and they know that it's research based on. We're going to continue to improve it and make adjustments based on what the data is showing. And that's the same thing for the Mansell's able to, you know, um, we have great data on the impact of the mantle of making in the legal industry of the whole and certainly in the law firms that have implemented over the past three years. Um, so when phones are legal, apartments want to do something, but they aren't sure what they know that they can have a really research back behavioral, science oriented approach that will make an impact on that will report back on on the progress.

spk_3:   20:06
Fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. And I wanted to bring Catherine in at this point. A Z. We're talking about data, Catherine, you've seen a lot of data in the work that we do here at did you treat Eagle? So I'd love to know. You know what advice you have for our audience in terms of a role that they can play in diversity now and in the future?

spk_2:   20:34
Well, you you live a nail on the head when you have a lot of

spk_3:   20:37

spk_2:   20:40
I am, Ah, self professed that data gate at this point. One of the many reasons that I love diversity labs work is is that it is data focused. Uh uh, because I believe that really nothing moved the needle faster or more effectively than actionable decision graze data. I m you know, when I think about data and diversity inclusion, I want to go back to that work allocation piece on because I do believe that that fair allocation around activities has a lot to do with. How does attorneys are going to progress in the workplace? And, um, what I mean by that is this. There is a growing body of research showing that, in particular, women in Loma do not have the same access to career advancing opportunities with men. And I say in particular because I'm thinking of a recent study that was published by the A B A. That was very much focused on, uh, why women are leaving the profession, even experience women. I think it's called Walking Out the Door on. One of the things that they found is that women do not have the same access to career. Advancing opportunities is met. And there's another body of research I that I've been seeing that shows that women are also doing a disproportionate share of work that, while important, does not advanced careers in the same way as, for example, taking expert depositions or arguing on substantive motion. So when you put these two things together, women are getting a double whammy. Uh, they are uh, with only so many hours in the day and having to fight harder for the career advancing opportunities, yet doing more of the less, um, valued work, even though this work is important, Um, they are leaving the profession in droves. And what you can do about this is look at work allocation in a whole new way with data on that that is actionable data that allows you to see who is doing what and compare the quality of work for diversity. It's versus but non diversity disease. And make sure that that allocation off both that really high quality work but also the work that is important but less career is dancing is being fairly allocated. And we use billing data to do that on when we talk about concrete steps that clients can take, or things that they can ask for from their law firms. Data that will show them not only that, that diverse associates are being staffed on their cases but what those associates are doing and that the career advancing work is being evenly account allocated. That is incredibly important, and I think clients need to be asking law firms to provide them with data that is high enough quality that they can get visibility into that incredibly important issue so that they can make decisions around

spk_3:   24:21
it. Aspirin. You know, we work with a lot of pricing directors and legal project managers and client value offices at that. The firms that we work with on DSO I'd love to know from you. You know what you think they can do in terms of this diversity issue and ensuring that we on seeing the back siding as we saw in 2008

spk_2:   24:48
I I go back to the work allocation

spk_3:   24:51
issue, which is really so

spk_2:   24:53
important. Uh, it's absolutely critical to ensuring the progress of diverse attorneys throughout the industry. On and in the pricing process. There is always a piece about staffing on thinking through who will be doing what and as that staffing pieces being put in place and while budgets are created or theory entrance thinking about fair allocation of career advancing work can and should be part of that who is taking those critical depositions? Who is going to be client facing That's part one for the pricing directors, but all the way through with the project managers are talking with the clients around a budget to actual and scope changes and re sourcing issues being thoughtful about what the attorneys air doing what the diverse attorneys were doing on, particularly versus their non diverse counterparts in making those decisions on resourcing decisions and managing the project throughout. So, keeping those issues that issue of work allocation top of mind that fairness peace top of mind throughout the pricing of project management process. But I would also turn it to the client I. It's not enough to simply ask for diverse attorneys to be staffed on your matters, because that when that happens, you begin at a client to own their careers, and with that comes responsibility. So when you're engaging with your client value officers, your pricing directors of the L can, uh, folks at at the law firm he asking those questions about not only who is on your team but what they are doing because you, as a client have a responsibility to ensure that the diversity not only your staff to your matters, but that they are not just parked there. They are moving forward in their careers.

spk_3:   27:16
I think it's it's incredibly important and I think it comes back to a question that I my head for Lisa as well. And you say you talked about the work allocation as an example. I'd love to know if you have any other examples or to build on that example of best practice in terms of what seems to be doing right now.

spk_1:   27:39
Back to work, allocation, you know, pay attention to who is and isn't gunning work. Maybe, ah, partner in each practice group can monitor work allocation specifically to ensure everyone's getting their fair share theirs. Someone from a firm place it out to me recently. There's a lot of new work and new cutting as work coming out of Kobe 19 and that is the kind of high visibility, really interesting and challenging work that can really push someone's career forward. So, um, so particularly important. They're, um, and sure that associates and even partners, you know, have someone assigned who can answer their questions. And I think I'm a big fan of cold surveys to to frequently check in and how people are doing um, both personally and professionally and what kind of support they need. I think and and you know, have that be searchable by gender and demographic identity. Identify areas, sort of weak links are areas where people aren't getting the support that they need. That's another, Um, that's another example of data, you know, that can really inform decision making. So it's, um so it's more based on consistent and sort of accurate and broader information rather than just anecdotal individual impressions, which right now, since we're not exposed, you know, we have a very limited, more narrow sphere of who were

spk_3:   29:16

spk_1:   29:16
close to day to day, um, for many people that, you know, crucially important. So, um, I think that's what I would say.

spk_3:   29:27
Excellent. Thank you. I think that pulse services a great idea. I don't know if firms are doing that, but it is a great way when we're all remote. T get a handle on how people are doing. I'm and I love that example about the fact that there is cutting edge where cutting edge work out there at the moment and ensuring that that is spread across the firm. And I think there's a great examples.

spk_1:   29:57
Hopefully, some of the people carry forward to back when people are back in the office. I think some of these outreach, um, effort and the, you know, the pulse surveys on DNA. That sort of thing can be deployed, you know, anytime, anywhere. And if they become more of a practice, I think that, um, that would be really helpful. Then firms would have sort of a data loop or a feedback loop, and they'd have a baseline. And then a way to measure differences. Some. It can be a lot in this, you know, time when everything so fast moving and decisions are being made quickly. Whether or not we're facing a pandemic, just the once a year sort of employee engagement survey or something like that isn't really, um, isn't really

spk_0:   30:45
the right tool or the only tool that I think people should use. But I would just pile onto that, you know, especially when you, as a law firm are thinking about how to engage with your client. Right now, clients have been doing that kind of stuff already. Right there. I know one large legal department that we work with. They actually, um, pull their surveyed on the the other employees on a daily basis. So when When their employees open their computer. There's just one question They have cancer and it changes every day. But that gives him a lot of inflammation as kind of where the organization is from. Like a cultural perspective on, You know, I think that one way that water could start to behave and act like their clients and understand that are coming from going forward is really checking in with employees on a systematic basis. Um,

spk_3:   31:36

spk_0:   31:37
you can get the data that you need Teoh course, Correct. If you're not really implementing the late strategy,

spk_3:   31:44
I'm glad you you started talking about legal departments because my next question for you later was about, um you know, what should clients be asking for in terms of diversity as the end ago panel reviews and consolidation, which is, I think, happening anyway. But it's probably inevitable in a time like this that there will be more focused on spend. So, you know, how do we keep Deva seafront of mind? You know, when you're on the client side Yeah,

spk_0:   32:15
well, the short answer that for whatever you want. Um, but, you know, when we really kind of look at it holistically, is the legal industry as a whole. We look a man, really focusing not just on who is performing your work, Um, for your legal department, although understand that's important to you, and you should absolutely ask for that. But don't forget about asking the firm about their overall numbers at a high level to look at the leadership of the firm. Look at the equity partner, have the firm as a whole, and then you could see how that compares to the information. I'm sorry who's looking on your individual matters, because

spk_3:   32:58
that's really

spk_0:   32:58
interesting comparison. What we don't want a firm using all of their diverse associates and partners to the clients are asking, but now actually seeing growth and change in the industry or the firm as a whole.

spk_3:   33:11
So that's

spk_0:   33:12
the 1st 1 is really focused on leadership. Um, I would say also, um, like I said, after whatever you want was seen insurgency clients get more. Um, you know, aggressive isn't the right word, but more deliberate and have their ask gain and actually going to ask for who's getting the origination credit on my matters? Who power are the associates that I love looking with and go to even though they haven't partners. Are they getting credit for this work? So really, we're gonna ask deep, hard questions that we know help people advance in their law firms and advocating them. But I'm on their behalf. And the most important thing, when you ask for all of this data, it's actually follow up on it.

spk_3:   33:58

spk_0:   33:59
um what, we don't want it like umbrellas data. And trust me, it can be overwhelming. We work with legal departments and collecting data and analyzing the data. It's a lot. But if you do after the data, make sure you're asking just for what you are actually prepared to work with and then follow up with your clients on it, so have a conversation. Hold them accountable to what you be, um, in their data, because otherwise they have no incentive to actually change their behavior. When you ask Children to data, Ah, lot of firms tell us that it kind of goes into this black hole. They never hear back from our clients. They spend a lot of time and effort collecting it and putting it out there, putting in every client specific form, and they

spk_3:   34:42
watch So

spk_0:   34:43
if you dio if you do collect a gated do follow up, hold them accountable and actually started just one more piece when you're

spk_3:   34:52

spk_0:   34:52
you're looking at law firm data, this really can and should be a year over year profit. So we love the idea of setting targets for that are founded in Gate Out for the diversity of firm, the University of the Lawyers working on your matters, but really more important. So get on the progress

spk_3:   35:14
that come

spk_0:   35:15
from the firm's year over. Year on. I really read something, and I forget where it's number. Otherwise I would credit it. But we were talking about how diversity is a lagging measure of inclusion effort. So what? We don't want it. Firms that have maybe put in some great, effective inclusion practices in the past year old, too, but they haven't seen those numbers. The diversity of representation numbers increase is a result. Yet we don't want those to be penalized and focusing on progress. Um, often has more of an impact than just the hard numbers and representation.

spk_3:   35:50
It's a great point. It's not taking just a snapshot in time. It's it's the full progress as firms are making changes and we're in keep encouraging them to make those changes were coming to the close of the podcast now. So thank you so much. For, you know, sharing all of this with our listeners That were the pricing matches, part cost. And normally I asked the question, Why does pricing matter? But I think given our subject today, you know, I'm gonna ask you why does diversity manatee eight And you at least would you be able to kick us off on that question?

spk_0:   36:28
Divert could be mattered to me because I think that we're missing out

spk_1:   36:31
on everything that we could. It she is, um, in the legal profession and as a society in general, because we're not effectively including everyone. We're shutting out a lot of people's perspectives and voices and creativity on talent on intellectual gift. There's a quote that I'm going to badly paraphrase, but I think it's from Jesse Jackson, the Jacqueline that we didn't know. Um, we didn't know how good baseball could be until everyone could play. We didn't know how good you know back all could be a He said. I think we don't We

spk_3:   37:08

spk_1:   37:08
know how good the attack industry congee until everyone can play and apply for the legal sector as well. So I think it's important we're in an interconnected world. And I think that, um we need to sort of truly achieve the the ideals of fairness and equity

spk_2:   37:27
and justice in the legal profession

spk_3:   37:31
and key. And Catherine, would you like to share your why? Diversity matters to you and you know particularly why we made sure Teoh, get diversity lab on the podcast.

spk_2:   37:46
Um, so the legal industry, the legal profession, it's something that I love, all right on and I have been in for 20 years, But, um, for me, personally, every step of the way in my career, I have been underestimated, and I in large part

spk_3:   38:07
because I'm

spk_2:   38:08
female and that is just made everything a little bit harder than it needed to be an already difficult profession. Now I have two young daughters and I get asked all the time Would you encourage them to do lawyers? I want to say yes, and we're getting there, but I want them to have the same chance as male counterparts. I want it to be while hard no harder for them. Then it should be, um and I think our profession can get there in my lifetime on that, Aiken encourage them to be part of this great pray profession. But we have work to dio on. I want their experience to be different than mine. And I want the experience of the next generation to be better on. That means working with companies like diversity Lab, using data and making change so that out great profession is greater and fair.

spk_3:   39:18
Thank you. I couldn't agree more. Um, Layla, would you like Thio Thio, Finish us off with this question. You know, why does diversity Medici

spk_0:   39:30
for, um Well, just personally, I like Oh, Hankwitz, Kathryn and Lisa that it's a matter of fairness on and that's always been kind of important value of mine. So fairness, just as it makes good. Then, um, I would also say that you know what we talked about the movies. Ways to support divers, lawyers and partners in the in the loft. Uh, they're all about making the workplace better for everyone. Really? We talk about a remote work, Cole, I'm checking in with your employees. Your employees. This is something you could You should be doing on a human level anyway. So it helps us help remind us of really come to the person behind every lawyer, employees, clients at butter. And then finally, you know, our profession, the law, It sounded injustice. So I I'm not sure how we 10 increased access to justice and make sure we're doing a really, um, the right job for clients if you don't have a diverse pool of lawyers working to fight with those clients Systemic level.

spk_3:   40:45
Thank you for sharing that. I think it's an important point. We are founded on justice. Well, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. I really appreciate hearing from all of you. You are here. I love that in unison. Thank you. It's gonna be beautiful. A podcast by digitally legal. To find out more about our guests, please visit our podcast page at Digital Eagle ford slash Pricing matters. If you have any feedback for many guests that you think we should feature please reach out to me at Aurilia at digital TV go dot com. Thank you for listening. See you next time